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Hurry Home Honey CARF P-51D

Started by Lane C., August 10, 2014, 07:45:47 am

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Lane C.

August 10, 2014, 07:45:47 am Last Edit: June 10, 2017, 07:35:17 pm by Lane C.
Although I am possibly planning on moving out of this apt, I ordered the CARF P-51D and it arrived this week. Since it's relatively fully built, it won't be a problem to move if I actually do that. Right now, she's just sitting on the bench whilst I clean up my work room and apt. I have been putting cleanup off for too long. But, like to admire the lines of the D Model while I'm cleaning up.

It's the CARF P-51D with 100" span and 88" length. She is rated for an 80cc gas engine or about an 8 - 10HP engine or any sort. I will likely run an Evolution 80cc gasser but have my eye out for a KOLM 135cc inline twin 4 stroke gasser at 12 HP. The CARF is both a complex build and an easy build at the same time. A few things on a plane of this magnitude that are required are a full cockpit and pilot, Sierra retracts, and sequencing inner main and tailwheel doors.



The CARF Spitfire video I posted in the VIDEO section is with the KOLM 135cc 12HP engine and it really smokes.

This is the American Beauty. Very sweet paint scheme. Might do this one. Photo courtesy of Andre Nordheim.

Current Build = F6F TF 86" Hellcat
Just Finished = Meister 118" A6M3 Model 22 Zero
Future Build = BUSA 1/4 Fokker DVII

DocBill

OK,  that will be $5K maybe you can get by with about $4K.

Good Job, get er in the air.
It is better to land long and hot, than slow and stall. [from personal experience]  The World Famous Dr. Bill Chambers

DocBill

Lane,  regarding the servos.  As with a conversation with Lawrence ...  we were talking about the Yellow Aircraft series of planes, and that these planes were all designed and built for 30 to 40 torque ounce servos or there abouts, because that is all they had back then.  But here we are putting 200 - 400  ounce servos on planes because we are told to do such by the hobby shops and "pro-builders".

One fellow [ Sam Parfitt ] put all HiTech 645's in his Corsair with the RCS 250 Radial.  [ remember that the RCS is the Moki, but if you buy a "moki" in the USA it has to be called a "RCS", since Moki is a "licensed" name and sold by that name in Europe. ]  So, Sam built his Comp ARF Corsair with ALL  HiTech 645's.  And the plane flies great and excellent.  There are no power surges, no digital servos fighting each other and such.  He has 40 flights on the plane.

And on my Comp ARF P 51, as one servo goes bad, I then replace it with the HiTech 645's.

On my Corsair.  I went with the JR 8711 at $110 bucks each and some hi-torque HiTech's on the flaps.  All, very much over kill, and the price was about $1300 or $1400 just for servos for the plane.  Sam Parfitt used all 645's and still doing great with over 40 flights on his Corsair.  So, just as we reach for the "newest, latest, strongest" servo, they really are not necessary.  Any one surface area on the Comp ARF P51 is not much larger than on a 85 inch P47 or other such warbird.  On the Comp ARF P51, there is a servo on each elevator.   Thus I would really consider going the less expensive way and use the 645's and do not get carried away with the expensive digital servos.  Thus that is 10 servos at $400, that is a $1000 dollar savings on servos.  I have the put 645's on my Comp ARF P51.

Bill
It is better to land long and hot, than slow and stall. [from personal experience]  The World Famous Dr. Bill Chambers

Lane C.

August 10, 2014, 10:43:41 am #3 Last Edit: July 14, 2015, 04:50:54 pm by Lane C.
Hey Doc Bill,

I plan on using Futaba 3305's which are very hi-torque metal gear servos. I have tried HiTek 645's in the past and they just hum all the time. I prefer the Futaba 3305's and now have retrofitted them on just about all of my big planes, even throttles. I will also put the elevator servos right in the center of the fuselage (to save lead in the nose later) and use arrow shaft pushrods with 4-40 rods on the ends. Rudder will be pull-pull and be combined with the tailwheel steering. On the elevator servos, the stab surfaces are not really all that heavy and no use putting a load on them/weakening them by cutting a hole and burying a servo in the middle, thus the move to the middle fuselage. I prefer heavy pushrods for the tail surfaces unless it's just not feasible to do so. Even pull-pull is better than servos in the tail end (IMHO). Ha

I was planning on using the Evolution 80cc rated at 10.1 HP (vs the usual DA-85) but looked at HorizonHobby last night and saw that all of a sudden they say "No Longer Available." Just last week, I sent an inquiry to them asking if that engine was ever going to get Electronic Fuel Injection like the 60cc and they said, "No plans for that at this time." I wonder if now they are going to do the EFI thing anyway as they pulled it from sales? Anyway, the Kolm 135cc would be the elegant solution but very expensive. Costs the same as a Moki radial. But, if I sell several of my planes, I might get one anyway. Ha. Watch that Spitfire video I posted the link to and you'll see why.

I will amend this post to say on the Big Corsair, in addition to the Futaba 3305's, I used 4 LHS digital, metal gear, hi-torque servos I bought from Lee Rice for the flaps. They are rated at 200 Oz output each!!! Haha. A bit of overkill for sure. But, got a good deal on them.
Current Build = F6F TF 86" Hellcat
Just Finished = Meister 118" A6M3 Model 22 Zero
Future Build = BUSA 1/4 Fokker DVII

Lane C.

August 12, 2014, 11:00:04 am #4 Last Edit: July 14, 2015, 04:50:00 pm by Lane C.
While it's just sitting on the bench, I wanted to sand down some ugly "seams" where they joined the lower part of the fuselage to the upper. Man, it was hideous.

The right side untouched.





The Left side sanded down.
Sanded down the material and gave it a coat or two of primer. Now, I can see the holes left in the joint and will use some bondo to level it out a bit. This is not a real noticeable part of the plane, but it should have been done better than this at CARF factory. This will get a double layer of final black/white paint with the invasion stripes, so hopefully it won't show at all. I'll go very light with the filler and just do a small amount at one time so as not to have to do any more heavy sanding.




Another shot of the rough seam.




View in normal position. Sanding not as apparent at this angle. Some wet sanding with 1000 grit should blend it all together.




Wet sanded.
Current Build = F6F TF 86" Hellcat
Just Finished = Meister 118" A6M3 Model 22 Zero
Future Build = BUSA 1/4 Fokker DVII

Lane C.

Found out today a KOLM engine takes about ONE YEAR to get one. So, that narrows it down quite a bit to the MVVS 80cc.
Current Build = F6F TF 86" Hellcat
Just Finished = Meister 118" A6M3 Model 22 Zero
Future Build = BUSA 1/4 Fokker DVII

DocBill

my zdz 80 flies er quite well, and does not have the balance vibrations probs of the DA85
It is better to land long and hot, than slow and stall. [from personal experience]  The World Famous Dr. Bill Chambers

Lane C.

August 26, 2014, 09:53:07 pm #7 Last Edit: July 14, 2015, 04:51:58 pm by Lane C.
Pretty sure I'm not doing another DA-85. The ZDZ's are available, but haven't looked into one yet. The MVVS 80cc  (Evolution before they discontinued them) takes a couple of weeks to get one from Europe.

I looked at TBM and they do not show an ZDZ 80cc, but have a new 90cc. They didn't give the HP output, but runs a 28 x 12 two blade prop, so, must be rather grunty.

Can you take a pic or two of your engine setup in your spare time? haha. Maybe I can look it over next time you have it at the field. Using a pitts style muffler makes a close fit on the left side. Cannister muffler might be less work.
Current Build = F6F TF 86" Hellcat
Just Finished = Meister 118" A6M3 Model 22 Zero
Future Build = BUSA 1/4 Fokker DVII

DocBill

August 27, 2014, 07:56:35 am #8 Last Edit: August 27, 2014, 07:32:36 pm by DocBill
I don't think that the 90 will run a 28 x 12.  That is the prop on my DA 120 and it is turning about 5800 !!!   Really too prop much for a 90cc.  Prob a 26 x 12 is more realistic.  But even at that the 90 should really pull the bird.  I am flying the dizzy 80-cc at 3/4 throttle on the up stroke of a loop or such.  Sometime full throttle.  So the 90 should be just fine.  ZDZ has had better luck with there balance needs.  But the DA 120 balance is quite nice.  The ZDZ 80 in my P51 does not seem to have too much vibration and have been happy with its performance.  The fellow that had the plane before me found the  24 x 12 was best for this engine.  I purchased 2 props a 24 x 12 and a 26 x 10 and then put on the 26 incher, this flies just fine.  Will try to bring out the P51 with the next flight.  To hot to work on the planes right now, and too hot to fly.  There are some pretty large solid aviation high density plywood stand offs that can be made for the plane.  And he built up the internal mounting with carbon fiber and WEST systems on the inside and out side.  This is A BIG FAILURE IN THE DESIGN.  DO NOT MOUNT THE ENGINE ON WHAT IS THERE.  It will not hold up.  You MUST re-enforce this area with carbon and WEST System.  and then with the rear entry carb you will get fuel residue in the entire front area around this engine mount.  Thus it is good to place WEST Systems over the entire inner aspect around the front mount area so that the oils and fuel does not make it into the "composite" of the plane and the foam of the "composite".
It is better to land long and hot, than slow and stall. [from personal experience]  The World Famous Dr. Bill Chambers

Lane C.

August 27, 2014, 08:56:38 am #9 Last Edit: August 27, 2014, 01:48:06 pm by Lane C.
I agree on the engine mounting problem. This needs to have at least a 1/2" or maybe 5/8" plywood firewall reinforcement epoxied to the glass from the top to the bottom of the fuselage mounting area to bolt standoffs to. Carbon fiber tow with epoxy added all around that to make it more secure. A guy by the handle of "Hornitpilot" did his CARF P-51 with a ZDZ 90 and beefed up the firewall like I just mentioned. I may start looking into the ZDZ 90J as well as the MVVS 80cc. They are about the same price. Lee has mentioned that the rotary valve engines can be somewhat problematic. Do you have any trouble starting or tuning yours?

Called TBM this afternoon to ask about the ZDZ 90. Wow, out of stock and they are not ordering any more till they can get a reliable spare parts supply/delivery commitment from ZDZ. It's looking more like the MVVS 80cc is going to be the engine!
Current Build = F6F TF 86" Hellcat
Just Finished = Meister 118" A6M3 Model 22 Zero
Future Build = BUSA 1/4 Fokker DVII

DocBill

Intended to say:  he made some standoffs out of high density aviation plywood for the plane.

Yes, please go ahead and build up the inside with a high density plywood or 2 pieces of 1/4 inch oak and epoxy the two together with the grain at 90 degree angle to each other.  This will make a really nice wooden reinforcement for the inside and just turn the plane on its nose and dump in the WEST System epoxy and let her build up.  Maybe even 4 or 5 ounces of the stuff.  And paint 2 or 3 coats of WEST System to the whole inside of the plane back to the first bulk head.  And paint the bulk head with WEST Systems.  DO NOT USE FIBERGLASS RESIN ON THESES PLANES IT WILL MELT THE PLANE.  On the inside of the foam there is a 1/2 mil coating you can sand this a hair till you get into the foam, then the WEST Systems will go into the foam and even better strengthen things up.  I would only use built up plywood stand offs on the nose since the area of the stand offs might be the area of lets say 5 square inches on each side.  [ my plane has one stand off on each side with the carb in the middle ].  Do not use the aluminum stand offs with the area of a nickel on such a plane.  All of that force and weight distributed across 4 stand offs the area of a nickel is crazy.  If you can do a 1/2 cut down cockpit,  i.e. end the lower section of the cockpit at lets say what would be the pilots hips, then this will give you room to mount the gas tank in the CG.  You will need at least 40 ounces.  I do not think that a full cockpit will fit in and get the gas tank in as well at the CG.

It is better to land long and hot, than slow and stall. [from personal experience]  The World Famous Dr. Bill Chambers

Lane C.

August 27, 2014, 09:35:33 pm #11 Last Edit: July 14, 2015, 04:53:36 pm by Lane C.
When I finally get an engine, I can get a bit more serious on the design of the engine mount. Took me a while to get the details of the Saito Radial engine mounting worked out on the Corsair.

I finally got a reply from Vogelsang and a price quote on the KOLM IL 135cc. They said a 3 to 6 week lead time is to be expected. I pinged them back to ask how that translates to the real world time frame. I suspect that the one year wait is the "real world." May take a few more days to get a further reply. At this point, No hurry in making a decision on the engine.
Current Build = F6F TF 86" Hellcat
Just Finished = Meister 118" A6M3 Model 22 Zero
Future Build = BUSA 1/4 Fokker DVII

DocBill

Problem solved.  I will sell you my dizzy 80 for $2400 bucks.  Can get it off the plane with a chain saw for you today, will deliver tonight.  And 2 props.
It is better to land long and hot, than slow and stall. [from personal experience]  The World Famous Dr. Bill Chambers

Lane C.

hahaha.

Today, got a new reply from Vogelsang stating that delivery takes about what he quotes on his first e-mail - 3 to 6 weeks. He said he sells lots of them every month and some are on the shelf ready to ship. So, maybe the guy that told me that there is a one year wait is more interested in selling HIS brand of two strokes to me! I can wait that long. After I pay off this month's CC bill, I will order one or the other.

I was coming home from Lake Bridgeport today and saw the Famous Doc Bill Chambers office on Hwy 199 in Azle. Wow, BIG LETTERS on the front of the office. Cannot miss it. ha
Current Build = F6F TF 86" Hellcat
Just Finished = Meister 118" A6M3 Model 22 Zero
Future Build = BUSA 1/4 Fokker DVII

Lane C.

Dr Vogelsang sent some pics of the KOLM 135 in the CARF P-51. Even offers an installation kit. Take up a lot of room for sure. I think these are photos of the short version engine before they made the long nosed version, and used prop extensions for their prototype. At any rate, lots of details in making this engine fit in the CARF P-51.






Current Build = F6F TF 86" Hellcat
Just Finished = Meister 118" A6M3 Model 22 Zero
Future Build = BUSA 1/4 Fokker DVII